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I see by Mark Swanson's avatar, and by a shot on Mike Doolin's website, curly Redwood being used for acoustic soundboards. So, I know at least a couple of you know the answer to this question: How does curly Redwood stack up acoustically with straight grained Redwood?

I know there must be some engineering issues, with the fact that the curl makes the grain erupt in waves through the top (runout every inch or so), but what about the ability to sustain the top's vibrations?

I have some beautiful curly Redwood, that has a nice tap tone and seems very lively. The left side of my brain tells me that the curls must impede the sustain, but my wood seems to ring for quite a while. I'm sure I'll try it at some point, but would love to get some insight from anyone who has used curly Redwood for acoustic tops.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Dennis,

I've used the straight stuff, but not curly. Only thing I've heard about the curly redwood, though, is that it can be hard to get things to stick to it -- like bridges. Just what I =heard= though.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

I've built quite a few instruments with it and I have never had a problem. The stuff I have is stiff, and it seems to be dense as well. I have some other curly redwood that seems to be not as dense, and I've never used it and I admit I am a bit suspicious of it. There's a lot of variation in the wood and you have to be careful about what you use. I got my curly redwood in billets from Bruce Harvie at Orcas Island Tonewoods, who seems to know what you'd want in a guitar top.
I know it is runout every few inches! But for some reason it doesn't affect the way the top works, or how it sounds because I get great results with the wood I have. Bryan Galloup told me he hates redwood and couldn't get glue to stick well, but I use hide glue and have not had a bridge come off or a brace pop off. I bet he had some bad stuff or something.
Lots of folks have a lot of good things to say about bear claw spruce, and the same things about runout (I believe) apply to it.
So go for it! Build yourself a guitar using the wood and see how it works for you because really you'll never know or feel good about it until you try it for yourself. You'll probably become a convert! I sure did, I've made a few bouzoukis out of it, too.
Here's a bigger picture of that guitar you mentioned, Dennis.

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Hi Mark
Beautiful guitar my friend. I am very fond of redwood. In fact the best sounding guitar I have built to date has a redwood top with black walnut b/s.
PS I didn't foget about you.

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1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Mark,

Thanks for the info, the encouragement, and the bigger photo. Yes, that is one beautiful top! I'm especially glad to hear that you feel that the results are great, because I'd hate to put forth the effort and then end up with a stunning, wall-hanging, guitar-shaped object.

I would hate to think I have to use hide glue, as I have no desire to get into that mess if I can avoid it. I think I'll try Titebond on some scraps, and see how hard it is to pop off a fake brace. I could also see where something oily, like some Cocobolo, might present an extra difficult gluing challenge for bridges. Do you wipe down your Ebony (or whatever you're using) bridges with solvent when using Redwood tops, or just stick 'em on?

Thanks again,

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Mark,

How many tops for flat-top guitars would you say you can get out of one of Bruce's archtop billets? Are they just rough split the way he shows in the photos?

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

Bob...it's funny that you mentioned black walnut, because the guitar in the picture I posted is also made with black walnut back and sides! That combination is killer.
Dennis, I used to use titebond all the time, but when I tried hide glue I heard a definite almost drastic improvement on the sound- it was really noticable. Don't let it scare you away, it really isn't hard to learn how to use it. The way you are doing your testing with the glue joints is the right way to do it- try hide glue, too!
The billets I bought from Bruce were 8/4- or 2" thick. How many tops you get depends on how good you resaw them! Mark Swanson38557.65

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Not sure if this is the case in the USA or not.

Over hear Redwood/Walnut and Western Red Cedar/Walnut are considered clasic combinations.RussellR38557.6511574074

I think you must mean that in the sense of the wood being used for "Classical" guitars, right?
It is true that folks didn't use those topwoods much until recent times, but they do work really good for steel-string guitars.
I build what I think of as fingerstyle guitars, and both woods are great for those.

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Hi Mark

No I mean for steelstrings, I don't mean way back in history. I think George Lowden had a lot to do with it over here, he is an advocate of both WRC/Walnut and Redwood/Walnut. Being one of our most respected makers this has had a big impact.

Oh yeah, many folks say that is a "magic" combination, and I swear there is something to it! It is probably the best combo for me.
As far as redwood I think it is closer to cedar in sound character than it is to spruce.

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Mark,

A hide glue tangent: do you think it makes any sonic difference anywhere else other than braces, bridge patch, and maybe the bridge itself? (I know there is another current thread where I should be asking this...)

It would be less daunting to think of using titebond everywhere else, and only dealing with the hide glue hassles on the soundboard. Wadda ya think?

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

While it makes enough sense to me to use it on my tops' bracing and I do use it to glue on bridges too, I don't use it on most other parts of the guitar. I like to take a little more time in gluing up most other things and I can't see how it can make too much difference if used elsewhere.
I glue my back braces on with it, too. If I have it hot and ready to go, I may use it for other things but I don't make that big effort to use it everywhere.
I suppose I should use it as the only glue on one guitar and see what it turns out like.

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Hey Mark
   I have never used curly redwood but have always admired its looks. A lot of successful guitars have been made using the stuff.
   It does have a bad runout problem and will be weaker for that. One one bulletin board I read of a builder of some renown who had a bridge pull off the top and take the area around the top with it. There was a hole in the top about twice the size of the bridge as a result. Runout wonout, so to speak.

Mark,

What gram weight of hide glue do you use? I bought some 256, I think it is, from International Violin, after the sales guy told me that Benedetto buys the same stuff from them, but I find that it dries so fast, it is almost more trouble than it's worth. And as a result, I've taken the easy way out and I use Titebond pretty much exclusively now.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

Here's a couple of pic's of mine.
Now admitedly I went out on a limb here and wouldn't suggest any one use a redwood top with this much curl and runout. No problems with glue holding after 3 years or so. However the top dipped quite a bit on either side of the soundhole. I suppose I could beef it up but the darn thing sounds so good that I just left it alone. By the way it's a Jumbo body 17"lb with the depth of an OM.

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The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Hey Bob that's really pretty! Is that a redwood burl for the rosette? Great looking guitar

John

Thanks John
Actually it's a piece of spalted maple that was pretty close to the redwood in color. Any wood come yet?Bobc38557.8751851852

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Great lookin' guitar Bob! And thanks John for the comments. By the way John it was nice to meet you at the last GAL convention last year- remember that night when you and your brother both came up to "The Tower" where me and Mike Doolin and some others were playing on into the night?

Michael, you will have a lot better luck using hide glue of a lesser gram strength. It has a longer open time and still plenty strong enough for guitar use. I got mine from the same place you did but I use the 160 gram stuff. Have a look at Frank Fords' website for a lot of help with hide glue.
Also, if you would like I can provide you with a link to a surplus place that sells a really nice kitchen hot pot that makes a great glue pot, for 5 bucks.

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Mark Swanson
Swanson Guitars
http://www.MarkSwansonMusic.com

Absolutely Russel, George Lowden is a great fan of Cedar/redwood with walnut, for steel string guitars. For those of you on the other side of the pond who may not know, George is a Belfast guitar builder who(in my not so humble opinion) is the greatest luthier ever to touch a chisel. I've met him a couple of times and played half a dozen or so of his guitars and I'll continue trying to build one that sounds like his do, until I succeed or die, which ever comes first ( I have a feeling it will be the second option). I believe that at some point in the past he had a midnight meeting at the crossroads with a mysterious stranger!

I have a cedar and English walnut OM which is my favourite for dropped tunings, but is still not quite there yet.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Mark I do remember that meeting in the tower, though I don't put names to faces very well. That was quite the event in general, though in the tower I was still suffering from a little jet lag. It was about 11 pm west coast time but the old bod told me it was 2 am.

Sorry, this is not germain to the post.

I love curly redwood tops    Just don't have the nerve to do it myself.

Hmmm . . . when I bought my hide glue, all they had was the 256 gw. Dangit. I'll go take a look at Frank's site.

I scavenged a laboratory hot plate at a yard sale a few years back (has a temp control). I use this with a double boiler kind of rig and a thermometer. Works great, and its cheap.

My next instrument will have a redwood top -- although not a curly one. I think you guys are pushing me back into using hide glue, with all your positive comments. Think I'll go ahead and use it with this next build.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Hi Colin

Nice to see you, I share your view on George he builds some amazing instruments, one of my customers is a big fan of Georges Instruments. He just had an S series made in Ziricote and European spruce by George. Needless to say I am a little nervous about delivering the first of two instrument next week!

On the subject of Walnut, I have used European Walnut and the American Black Walnut and find them to be very different in character, I find the American Walnut a little muddy by comparison. I am just about to build my first instrument in Claro, so will be very interested in the result.

Colin - Andy is the man for English walnut, he also just took delivery of some Claro and some beautiful Cuban Mahogany, if you want pictures let me know.

Bob Cefalu,

That's a beautiful guitar, and now I see that you do a lot more than slice xylem! You mentioned that you "wouldn't suggest any one use a redwood top with this much curl and runout" well, the material I have has (I think) even more runout that the piece you used.

I guess if and when I build with this, I should be prepared for the possibility that I may want to peel it off and serve it with guacamole.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Dennis my top has much wider spacing between the curls which made for a floppy top. I should have beefed up around the sound hole. Maybe a spruce ring on the inside to make the top stronger in that area.

_________________
Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498